The Intercooler Thread
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Dr_Josh001
Leaving Skid Marks
If it's 70mm thick it'll fit behind the impact bar no probs. If it's 76mm it won't and you'll have to cut the upright below the bonnet latch and lean it back behind the impact bar.
timmae2006
Leaving Skid Marks
Those end tanks are shockingly inefficient
you reckon? i wouldnt imagine it would be that much of a biggy
timmae2006
Leaving Skid Marks
yeah right find out soon i guess
SiliconAngel
1 AYC Bar
That design will force 90% of the air through the bottom third of the cooler. For a relatively unmodified VR4 it will be ok 'cause you won't be running massive boost, but as I said it's inefficient - you'd be better off with an improved design that's half the size.
Dr_Josh001
Leaving Skid Marks
I second that; it's also no point having half the IC behind the lower splitter and apper impact bar as there's no direct air flow into the core.
I've already ate my words as mine is a 600x300x76 and there's not much difference in power.
I've already ate my words as mine is a 600x300x76 and there's not much difference in power.
My 2 cents worth..
I think that most people on here think that bigger is better. In short, it's not. You should go with the smallest cooler that suits your requirements.
The bigger the cooler the more volume the turbo's have to "fill" before the engine see's boost pressure.
I have just fitted an 550x250x75 cooler. I did that for a number of reason's.
1. convenience- someone one selling it, i wanted to replace the poor flowing stock item.
2. price, it was pretty cheap in the big scheme of things.
3. ease of installation, i drilled one hole and reused stock piping.
Now i'll only ever run <14psi throughthis cooler. It's a bar and plate which typically flows better than the tube and fin core but loses out a little on cooling efficiency- that's ok as there'll be less pressure drop across the core.
Mate of mine has a car with 450+ rwhp. Guess how big his cooler is???? It's 400x300x100. The cold side of the tank is always COLD after any power run on the dyno or road.. It's colder than the Hybrid core in my Sil80- why, its design. What does this mean, bigger isn't better, it comes down to the design and it's efficiency.
To find out more and improve your understanding of intercoolers, i invite you got visit www.are.com.au. This site has a wealth of information that will if you let it, improve your understanding of what works and what doesn't. Happy reading
I think that most people on here think that bigger is better. In short, it's not. You should go with the smallest cooler that suits your requirements.
The bigger the cooler the more volume the turbo's have to "fill" before the engine see's boost pressure.
I have just fitted an 550x250x75 cooler. I did that for a number of reason's.
1. convenience- someone one selling it, i wanted to replace the poor flowing stock item.
2. price, it was pretty cheap in the big scheme of things.
3. ease of installation, i drilled one hole and reused stock piping.
Now i'll only ever run <14psi throughthis cooler. It's a bar and plate which typically flows better than the tube and fin core but loses out a little on cooling efficiency- that's ok as there'll be less pressure drop across the core.
Mate of mine has a car with 450+ rwhp. Guess how big his cooler is???? It's 400x300x100. The cold side of the tank is always COLD after any power run on the dyno or road.. It's colder than the Hybrid core in my Sil80- why, its design. What does this mean, bigger isn't better, it comes down to the design and it's efficiency.
To find out more and improve your understanding of intercoolers, i invite you got visit www.are.com.au. This site has a wealth of information that will if you let it, improve your understanding of what works and what doesn't. Happy reading
timmae2006
Leaving Skid Marks
ive heard removing the impact bar and tampering with it sets off the air bags and that its not worth touching? any1 wanna tell me if this is true or not
G
Guest
Unregistered
not..
G
Guest
Unregistered
right on Simon bigger isnt always better, well not with intercoolers. I have a 400 x 300 core too and am getting the same core size again in my custom made one too.
timmae2006
Leaving Skid Marks
bummer...well ill just buy a smaller one then....kcuf
bradc
1 AYC Bar
Mine is a 600x300x100. Ideally I would have got a 200mm tall one but over here they are virtually impossible to find in that size. When I get my aftermarket bonnet on I will expose more of the core though.
G
Guest
Unregistered
how about this scenario then-
if a 600x300 only exposes 600x200 of the IC directly (theoretically speaking) wouldnt the 600x300 which has 2/3 exposed, be as effective as the 600x200 with 100% exposed?
because the air would not be cooled across the non-exposed bit, wouldnt there be less pressure drop across the face than if the whole 600x300 is exposed?
in the end meaning that unless the larger cooler was completely exposed to air flow, the IC's would have essentially the same effect?
just putting it out there for you tech-heads . . . .
if a 600x300 only exposes 600x200 of the IC directly (theoretically speaking) wouldnt the 600x300 which has 2/3 exposed, be as effective as the 600x200 with 100% exposed?
because the air would not be cooled across the non-exposed bit, wouldnt there be less pressure drop across the face than if the whole 600x300 is exposed?
in the end meaning that unless the larger cooler was completely exposed to air flow, the IC's would have essentially the same effect?
just putting it out there for you tech-heads . . . .
SiliconAngel
1 AYC Bar
Err, not really Reg.
How do I explain this? Ok, so basically in an intercooler (or any heat exchanger, really) you have stuff you're trying to cool by taking heat out of it and radiating it into the air. The more air that passes by the heat exchange fins, the cooler the 'substance' you're trying to cool.
So you have intake air flowing in through your intake, past your MAF sensor, through your turbos where it's recombined and shoved through the intercooler. It enters the IC at one side and exits on the other, before making it up to your intake manifold and thence into your engine. How does it get from the IN pipe in the IC to the OUT pipe? It passes through a series of flat, rectangular pipes that are full of fins.
If you look at the face of your IC, you'll see sections with fins that almost allow you to see through the core. These fins allow ambient air to pass through the core, cooling it down. Interspersed between these finned areas are what appear to be metal plates - these are just tubes full of fins just like the other sections, only these fins are 'inside' the IC running perpendicular to the ones you can see. These internal fins absorb the heat from the compressed but hot air coming from the turbos, cooling it down and allowing it to get denser still before it reaches the engine.
So your pressure drop is what happens when you have a pipe of a given diameter full of air at a certain pressure that suddenly opens out into a larger pipe, kind of like this:
Air travelling down the length of this pipe will experience a sudden pressure drop when it reaches the larger, more open section of pipe. This causes the air to lose momentum and density, quite the opposite of what you're trying to achieve in the first place with turbos - you want air entering your cylinders at high pressure as that gives you greater power (more oxygen to burn). But because the very act of increasing air pressure will generate heat, you use an IC to cool it back down again. The cooler the air, the more dense it is. HOWEVER, you don't want to cool the air to the detriment of pressure (well, not TOO much anyway) - if you do so you're utterly defeating the purpose of having turbos in the first place.
So to answer your question, we're not concerned with the size of the cooler's external 'face' relative to pressure drop, as air passing by outside the cooler affects its cooling potential, not its internal pressure drop as the two are physically separate. Pressure drop is a function of both the size of the core (how much bigger the 'bigger pipe' is) and the efficiency of the design - a poor flowing cooler will cause so much turbulence the turbos will effectively be working against themselves.
Clear as mud?
How do I explain this? Ok, so basically in an intercooler (or any heat exchanger, really) you have stuff you're trying to cool by taking heat out of it and radiating it into the air. The more air that passes by the heat exchange fins, the cooler the 'substance' you're trying to cool.
So you have intake air flowing in through your intake, past your MAF sensor, through your turbos where it's recombined and shoved through the intercooler. It enters the IC at one side and exits on the other, before making it up to your intake manifold and thence into your engine. How does it get from the IN pipe in the IC to the OUT pipe? It passes through a series of flat, rectangular pipes that are full of fins.
If you look at the face of your IC, you'll see sections with fins that almost allow you to see through the core. These fins allow ambient air to pass through the core, cooling it down. Interspersed between these finned areas are what appear to be metal plates - these are just tubes full of fins just like the other sections, only these fins are 'inside' the IC running perpendicular to the ones you can see. These internal fins absorb the heat from the compressed but hot air coming from the turbos, cooling it down and allowing it to get denser still before it reaches the engine.
So your pressure drop is what happens when you have a pipe of a given diameter full of air at a certain pressure that suddenly opens out into a larger pipe, kind of like this:
Air travelling down the length of this pipe will experience a sudden pressure drop when it reaches the larger, more open section of pipe. This causes the air to lose momentum and density, quite the opposite of what you're trying to achieve in the first place with turbos - you want air entering your cylinders at high pressure as that gives you greater power (more oxygen to burn). But because the very act of increasing air pressure will generate heat, you use an IC to cool it back down again. The cooler the air, the more dense it is. HOWEVER, you don't want to cool the air to the detriment of pressure (well, not TOO much anyway) - if you do so you're utterly defeating the purpose of having turbos in the first place.
So to answer your question, we're not concerned with the size of the cooler's external 'face' relative to pressure drop, as air passing by outside the cooler affects its cooling potential, not its internal pressure drop as the two are physically separate. Pressure drop is a function of both the size of the core (how much bigger the 'bigger pipe' is) and the efficiency of the design - a poor flowing cooler will cause so much turbulence the turbos will effectively be working against themselves.
Clear as mud?
timmae2006
Leaving Skid Marks
nope, good description
G
Guest
Unregistered
hey trev good write up but i have to disagree on one point about the pressure drop it will repressurise so to speak as it exits the intercooler because the outlet size is the same size as the inlet , it will only create lag as a result as it takes time to pressurise the intercooler to max pressure before it will properly show that pressure at the outlet end...Now the real question is if you have a 2.5" inlet and a 3" outlet what will happen? Pressure loss? I am about to get a cooler made and i have the problem of a 2 " outlet on the turbo and a three inch inlet to manifold...where do i step up the size difference, I'm thinking straight after the turbo go to 3" then keep that all the way thru???
Benny, don't confuse boost with flow. People often talk about e.g i want to run 21pounds boost. The only valid thinking behind that is THAT is the pressure required to get the given airflow they require to provide the engine the amount of air to produce a certain horsepower. ( hope that makes sense) It's airflow not boost
Put it another way. Think of the little compressor wheel on our turbo's. For it to produce , as an example, 7 psi of pressure, it spins at 20000rpm. Now think of the engine on a modern jet aircraft say Boeings 777( currently the highest rated thrust engine in production) Its fan- which produces almost all the thrust- is huge, about the size of a 737 fuselage. For that fan to produce 7 psi of pressure it would probably spin over at 300rpm, most.
Back to your question. I'd keep it as small as you can for as long as you can, ideally, to the throttle body. You want to keep the pipe diameter small to reduce the lag as much as possible.
So run it 2inch to the intercooler and then step it up from there. otherwise you'll find the car is noticelby laggier with the larger diameter pipe straight from the turbo.
Remember, the step up in potential flow from a 2 to 3 inch pipe is massive.
Put it another way. Think of the little compressor wheel on our turbo's. For it to produce , as an example, 7 psi of pressure, it spins at 20000rpm. Now think of the engine on a modern jet aircraft say Boeings 777( currently the highest rated thrust engine in production) Its fan- which produces almost all the thrust- is huge, about the size of a 737 fuselage. For that fan to produce 7 psi of pressure it would probably spin over at 300rpm, most.
Back to your question. I'd keep it as small as you can for as long as you can, ideally, to the throttle body. You want to keep the pipe diameter small to reduce the lag as much as possible.
So run it 2inch to the intercooler and then step it up from there. otherwise you'll find the car is noticelby laggier with the larger diameter pipe straight from the turbo.
Remember, the step up in potential flow from a 2 to 3 inch pipe is massive.
G
Guest
Unregistered
yeah but is that relevant to me, remember only 12" from turbo to intercooler and 4" from intercooler to throttle body..
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